[Whonix-devel] [qubes-users] Valid Concerns Regarding Integrity of Whonix Project

Sat Feb 16 05:08:39 CET 2019

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On Friday, February 15, 2019 10:58 PM, <qubes-fan at tutanota.com> wrote:

> Dear Patrick,
>
> I appreciate your answer and understand your point of view. On the other side, the issue raised by the law in Australia (and GCHQ asked for that too, like the request of ghost user in all the "encrypted" conversations) is an important security concern and should be taken into consideration in the thread/trust model not only with Whonix, but with all the HW, SW, infrastructure and personnel. As of today, it is not.

While this threat is certainly a concern it is nothing new. Although new in Australia, many other countries have had similar laws and/or don't have any laws that would prevent the govts from forcing a person to do pretty much what ever they want. With ever evolving threats it would be near impossible to keep up. Once a mitigation is found for one, two more emerge. How do you combat adversaries that have near unlimited resources? Trust model/concerns have been considered in https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Trust. (Has anyone bothered to read it?)

>
> Existing thread models are currently not considering this form of attack. Same way as the existing thread models, including those of Qubes, TAILS, Whonix and others, are not covering the thread of being forced on the border to GB or US to hand over all the keys to all your digital devices under the thread of imprisonment. There is no Hidden OS functionality mentioned, and no known development in this area, even the thread exists and ppl are already successfully exploited by these attacks.

If anyone can come up with a mitigation to an adversary putting a gun to a developers head and asking nicely for their private key - id like to hear it. How exactly does someone overcome an impossible situation? How do you you cover a - do as is say or die- threat model? Holy shit! It was here all along!  https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Trust#Free_Software_and_Public_Scrutiny

>
> This is but not an issue of Whonix. It is an issue of not addressing the new, emerging attacks clearly. The FMECA, which is constantly not updated, becomes obsolete, and continuously useless. From my personal experience, if people are sub-aware that some FMECA points could be very difficult to address and solve reasonably, they tend to avoid to put it in to the FMECA and start to care.
>
> Concerns related with that Ausie law and similar activities of some entities, are based on reality. Before the law was here, it was more difficult to successfully reach forced cooperation. Usually it was through blackmail, convincing, threads or similar activities, to forge the canaries and insert the dirt in the code or HW. There was still quite good space for an effective resistance of the personnel, if one wanted. The personnel was protected by law. The kind of moral part today is killed there completely. Today they just come and bring you the lawful request and you must comply with it and fulfill the request, or go directly to jail ( I think it is 5 years?), and at the same time you are bound not to tell anyone, by any means be it your corporate employer, your teammate, brother or development project partner. They effectively created from every citizen a potential agent, which cant deny to become one if requested.

Yes, before the law other means would be necessary to compel a developer to backdoor software in **Australa**. Now the laws says the govt can force a person, or go to jail. Some would choose jail (then the cats out of the bag. Everyone would then know why they went to jail. common sense). Others might not have much of a choice. Regardless, this and other emerging attacks has been consider and covered.... (not necessarily whonix specific)

* https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Trust#Free_Software_and_Public_Scrutiny

* https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Trust#Trusting_Debian_GNU.2FLinux

* https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Trust#Trusting_Tor

* https://www.whonix.org/wiki/Trust#Evil_Developer_Attack

>
> Quite easy countermeasures were possible, if the devs (in this case), were anonymous. But they are not so much, right? Therefore are open to this particular attack that just emerged. How and when will it be added to the thread model and covered, together with other new emerging threads, by respective tams, is the only question to be answered.

Already covered.

My questions: When will the people who bring these issues up (valid issues) realize this is a shared burden - both devs and community. Why didn't the OP feel compelled to put forth the effort to research and understand this problem before crying wolf? This issue is not new. This same issue (developers backdooring) had been discussed and beaten into the ground countless times.

Here is what is comes down to. Developers can be forced to alter/backdoor software in **many** countries. It makes no difference how its done, threat of jail or violence makes no difference. This is an impossible situation to 100% solve. It could be solved but not likely due to the lack of support (financial, code contributions, audits etc.. ) from communities from **every** project.

FWIW I'd like to give the OP a round of applause for singling out a well respected dev when this is not just Whonix issue. Not only for that but also deciding (for the dev) that he would just cave in if encountered with this law/situation. This is an attack on his character if i ever saw one. This problem applies to Tor, Qubes, Whonix, DropBox, devs that live in any country that doesn't have laws that protect people or have laws that can compel them to cooperate.

OK I'm done with my rant. ;)
>
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